Wolf Ammo in ARs

[fhenry]

Just curious as to how folks on this board fall on the subject ;D

Let's hear it.....

The steel is too hard on the AR parts that touch it, it's stinky, it's sub-par in quality, it leaves gunk that jams the weapon.......

or

All the above is myth by haters, it's good stuff for the money, never had a problem........

[Mike C (Perro)]

AR15s................

before i start, i need to qualify my reply by saying that anyone who knows me for any period of time knows that there isnt a single firearm on the face of this earth i hate more than the AR15. i would rather field a Chauchat than an AR15, but that is just my opinion, and i know some people really love the AR - just not me.


but, i see the appeal of the AR15 - one of the biggest positives that the AR has going for it is the fact that there are cheap, and readily available parts for it - thats huge when it comes to shooting ALOT in my opinion.

I have found in my experiance that the M16 breaks ALOT of parts when its being used ALOT. when you are shooting it that much, i tend to think of broken parts as consumables, and since the AR has parts so cheap and readily available its hard to care

i can tell you this from experiance

most of the long time machine gunners who put a TON of ammo through there guns prefer steel cased ammo for 1 and 1 reason only - its much more forgiving than brass on headspace.

as a matter of fact i just recently tested out my 7.62x54r conversion kit on my 1919a4
i had belted 500 rounds of czech copper coated steel case, and 250 rounds of hungarian, or bulgarian (cant remember) yellow tip heavy ball. the czech steel case had 1 case head seperation out of 500 rounds. it came within the first 10 rounds. i tightened headspace 1 click and it ran the remaining 490 or so rounds without a hitch

i then broke out the brass cased yellow tip and put it in the gun. the very first round EXPLODED. i cleared the gun and it blew the case like an out of battery, but i know for a fact it was in battery because i watch the cocking handle go home.

tightened 1 click from where the steel case was running perfect, pulled the trigger and BOOOM - another explosian

tightened 1 click (2 clicks tighter than the steel case) and pulled the trigger and it was leaving ridges in the brass like it was SOOOO close to doing it again

tightened it 1 more click (3 clicks tighter than what the steel case ran perfectly with) and the gun ran the brass without issue for the remaining 200 or so rounds


proof that steel cased ammo is more forgiving than brass ammo

also - in 8mm - the steel cased romanian is preferred to any other round


me personally, i grew up drinking all the kool-aid and blindly following the belief that if brass cased ammo was available i would shoot it any day over steel cased. there are LOTS of "experts" on the internets that helped me with my beliefs that brass cased ammo was better for many many years. It was actually hard to get my head around the fact that steel cased ammo could be better for people who actually shoot the CRAP out of there guns, but over time i have come to believe it, and prefer the steel cased.

i put 5000 rounds + of ammunition through my browning 1919a4 in 1 day at our new years day shoot this year. i know thats more than most shooters put through there guns in 5 years or more.

i guess if i shot 1000 rounds a year slowly through my gun i could afford to buy ultra premium ammo that was brass cased. unfortunately i can put that through my sterling in a single day without trying hard at all so economics also plays a fair part in my decision to shoot steel cased ammo if its cheaper than brass.

i can tell you that i have seen rickinvegas bump fire (which i think might be a bit harder on the gun than full auto fire) MANY MANY MANY MANY thousands of rounds of wolf .223 through his olympic ar 15, and although i know for sure it has broken alot of parts, he has NEVER had problems with it shooting the wolf .223 steel cased

if i have to answer (and its just my opinion), im joining the side that dont care if it wears out parts a bit faster - i prefer newer production steel cased ammo over brass

now - here is my caveat with steel cased ammo
it is made of steel and it RUSTS. sometimes from the inside out. This weakens the steel case - lots of ammo from ww2 was made in steel casings - i would be hesitant to shoot something this old made of steel (although i would in something that can take it and beg for more like a browning)

and - there is SOME steel cased ammo that causes big problems. Wolf brand in .308 is known for blowing primers and blowing up guns. Im not certain if it was ever corrected, but i know that there used to be problems with wolf .308 blowing up FALs, and im for sure certain that i would still shoot the wolf steel cased .308 over 97, or 98 headstamped indian 762x51 nato ammo


if steel case ammo is only a bit cheaper than the brass, then i may decide to buy the brass because you can scrap it and turn it in for money to put towards more ammo, and alot of brass can be reloaded easily so that is one thing brass has going for it

also - if im talking pistol caliber, im probably shooting brass simply because i can reload it. most of my reply above is geared towards shooting rifle caliber machine guns. Its not fair to compare a full auto belt fed rifle caliber MG to shooting say a m1 garand. 8 round clips at a time goes pretty slow. id probably use the brass in the garand just cause its reloadable

so - those are my opinions

its cool if they dont match up with anyone else - i can dig it either way - they are only my opinions!!

so - put me down in the category of shooters that prefer the steel case (with certain exceptions)

[madamslv]

I shoot a lot of steel casing ammo in 9mm, 5.56 and 5.45.
It all seems to run fine without issues.

There is only one word of caution I would give. Do not mix steel and brass when shooting. Shoot one or the other then clean your chamber before switching.

Failure to clean the chamber when switching casing types will generally result in a stuck casing. This is generally more noticable on the rifle calibers with the pistol calibers being more tolerant of dirty chamber. (especially straight blowback subguns)

Matt

[vegassmg]

I've shot well over ten thousand rounds of Wolf poly 5.56 in my Registered Receiver Colt since it transfered to me in 2002. Add to that number several thousand rounds of brass cased ammo, and I've got some small measure of experience with the AR-15/M-16 system and using various ammo.

When I first acquired the gun, Wolf only offered the green lacquer cased ammo... there was no polymer cased ammo in any caliber. At the insistence of several people with full auto guns, I tried using the green lacquer ammo. No joy for me. I'd get a fired case stuck inside the chamber every five to ten rounds and resort to tapping it out with a cleaning rod. This was using a Colt 20" upper and a Bushmaster 14&1/2" upper. It was disappointing to see several guys run this cheap steel cased ammo in their full auto guns while I was forced to use the more expensive, (about $150.00 per case at the time), brass case ammo.

A year or two later, Wolf began the manufacturer of their current polymer ammo. Based on my previous experience with Wolf I was reluctant to try this new offering. When I did shoot the poly Wolf ammo, I was pleasantly surprised to find it was extremely reliable in all my uppers in both full and semi auto. I've been feeding my full and semi auto ARs a steady diet of steel cased Wolf since that day several years ago.

The only parts failure to date has been an unmarked bolt that broke in the absolute thinnest area... the cam pin hole. It was actually a crack on one side that I discovered only when cleaning. I never suffered any malfunctions related to the bolt crack failure, and I replaced it with a new one of "known" quality. I've seen and heard of other bolts breaking in the same place, so I don't think it's that uncommon. Given enough rounds with any bolt, it's bound to happen at some point. I seriously doubt this breakage was the fault of shooting Wolf ammo as it's generally considered slightly underpowered when chronoed against NATO ammunition.

RKI's have reported that the steel used in Wolf cases is mild and is actually more pliable than some brass cases. There have been documented instances of surplus brass from foreign countries that was brittle and resulted in cracked cases. Mild steel cased ammo isn't a bad thing, and has seen wide usage and general acceptance by many countries. I don't know how long steel has been used, but at least since WW-2 when the U.S. even used some steel cases.

There have been reports of extractors breaking due to steel case use, but I wonder if an extractor breaking isn't one of the wear items that will fail at a given number of rounds regardless of the ammo being used. At any rate, they're cheap, readily available, and extremely simple to replace. The cost savings on 500 rounds of Wolf 5.56 steel cased ammo versus brass will allow you to buy several spare extractors, but I doubt you'll need them. I've not noticed any excess wear on the chambers of my chrome lined barrels.

As far as accuracy, there are better options than Wolf, but it's not that bad. When you own full auto weapons, you quickly learn what works and what doesn't when you're dumping a bunch of ammo down range. I find Wolf to be GREAT blasting ammo and I'll continue to shoot it as long as the price is below other "quality" brands.

You may find this link to "The Box of Truth" interesting reading. It's an issue that madamslv raised and one I've experienced myself. www.theboxotruth.com/docs/edu18.htm

My advise? Buy a couple of hundred rounds and see if YOUR gun likes Wolf. You've got cost savings to gain and little to lose.

My two cents and worth exactly what you paid for it.

[fhenry]

Jul 22, 2009 21:05:18 GMT -5 vegassmg said:

There have been reports of extractors breaking due to steel case use, but I wonder if an extractor breaking isn't one of the wear items that will fail at a given number of rounds regardless of the ammo being used. At any rate, they're cheap, readily available, and extremely simple to replace. The cost savings on 500 rounds of Wolf 5.56 steel cased ammo versus brass will allow you to buy several spare extractors, but I doubt you'll need them. I've not noticed any excess wear on the chambers of my chrome lined barrels.

This is what I've heard/was primarily wondering about. I also know a couple of guys that've had the stuck case issue post-Wolf but I know in at least one of those cases the guy didn't clean his rifle at all between shooting the Wolf and then running some brass through it.

I've shot a fair amount of Wolf out of SKS's and AK's and never had any issues to speak of but I've been shy about running through my ARs. I have a case of it on hand but it was put aside for TEOTWAWKI i.e. after all the brass had been expended. You all make some good points about it so I may have to switch over and run it for plinking.

[vegassmg]

Jul 22, 2009 22:08:56 GMT -5 fhenry said:

I have a case of it on hand but it was put aside for TEOTWAWKI i.e. after all the brass had been expended.

Respectfully, I feel you've got things backwards...
I've got several thousand rounds of brass cased ammo I'm hoarding for TEOTWAWKI. If it comes down to that, I'd rather have the brass cased ammo for preservation of life and property. The Wolf is for blasting cans, paper, and having a good time. The brass is for serious range work and long term storage.

I keep hearing about extractor breakage but haven't suffered a single one after tens of thousands of rounds. I forgot to mention I use a number 60 O ring around all my extractor springs to stiffen up the extractor's grip on the case for added reliability. These are less than fifty cents each from ACE Hardware and I've not worn one out after thousands of rounds. Remarkable when you consider the heat from Beta C dumps and many cleanings with harsh solvents. I'd think the tighter grip should have resulted in a broken extractor long ago.

Bushmaster sells their COMPLETE bolts for $56.00. I'm guessing you would easily save enough money on a single case of Wolf to buy a complete bolt to have on hand. The extractor itself is only $13.00 and requires no hand tools to replace. (I use the firing pin as a pin punch)

Of course, YMMV.

[fhenry]

No, I agree with what you're saying.

But how it happened (finally getting some .223 Wolf) is that since I do a relative small amount of .223 shooting I've always just run and stored brass for plinking/SHTF/TEOTWAWKI (price wasn't that big of an issue). However, when the Obama panic hit last fall and ammo went unavailable for the most part I was at one of the fun shows and said screw it I better buy some Wolf as it's "better than nothing" i.e. if it ever came to the point where we hit a prolonged period of ammo non-availability because of a crisis, Obama 500% tax situation etc I wouldn't care about it being steel cased or not at that point. So I've had a case of it rat-holed off and wasn't even thinking about it until....... I saw you and a couple of other guys running it in your MGs. That really opened my eyes because if folks that pump out more ammo in 1 session than I do in a year are running it something must be wrong with the theory it tears up your AR.

Appreciate the expertise (as always)

[vegassmg]

Now, having said all these positive things about Wolf 5.56 ammo... I have a buddy in the Phoenix area who swears I must be a bald face lair because he can't get his Oly Arms RR conversion to run with Wolf in any of his five uppers, all in varying lengths. He gets multiple stuck cases per mag that require the use of a cleaning rod. You could have issues with Wolf in your particular gun.

You saw my 7 1/2" shorty run, and I don't recall it missing a single beat all day long. As you saw, lots of different people shot it using a combination of brass and Wolf ammo along with a variety of mags. Many people can't get a M-16 shortie to run. Maybe I'm just lucky with this gun, I don't know.

What I do know is that even though I'm an admitted cheap bastard, I won't use any ammo or accessory that may damage my transferable weapons or hurt anyone. I've been through well over ten thousand rounds of Wolf and I like it for casual blasting ammo. I DO have an occasional stuck case, but I swear it seems to run in different case lots. Maybe the factory applied the Polymer coating a little heavy that day? Even so, it's maybe once every 500 rounds and usually when the gun gets filthy. My last few cases have been very reliable. In fact, the absolute worst ammo I've ever used was 2K of brass cased Olympic 5.56 I purchased in 2003 for under $150.00 per case delivered. Pure out of spec crap that many people had problems with.

Let us know how the Wolf works out for you in your gun. I'm planning on shooting Saturday morning at around 9:00 with a guy from work. He owns a few guns he hasn't shot in several years and he wants to get back into shooting again. Just saying...

[fhenry]

I hear ya. I've resigned myself to getting out shooting this weekend as well.