NFA/Class 3 Items....where do you start?

[fhenry]

I asked this question on the ARFCOM NV HTF but for those of you that don't frequent that board (or would prefer to answer here) I'd greatly appreciate some good info.

I guess I'm inclined to go the trust route even though I don't know jack about them. Anything you guys could school me on in regard to trusts, to include the best way to start one for firearms reasons would be tremendously appreciated.

I do know I'll probably start out with a suppressor and I'm sure it'll take off from there. I've been wanting to do this for a few years but the fact there's a lot of unknowns for folks like me just kept me from doing anything.

[vegassmg]

Many people are going the trust route these days so you're in good company.

This site is the most comprehensive I've ever seen on the subject of NFA ownership via trusts. You want good information? This is it! Consider Book marking it and review the material several times. I'll bet 99% of your questions will be answered.
www.86th.org/?id=nfa-trust

I've referred several people to this site. Please do me a favor and let me know if you find this information useful so I can continue to point folks in that direction or locate something better.

Regards,
Tom

[fhenry]

Roger that, wilco.

[Mike C (Perro)]

for me, the individual transfer works best - i understand each and every person is different, but i will try and explain why i like the individual transfer better - of course, your mileage may vary.

first and foremost our sherriff WILL sign the form 1, and 4s, you just have to wait 3 weeks for him to do it, and you have to go downtown and fill out a 2 page form - if you would like a copy of the form, feel free to email me.

the benefits of having our CLEO sign off on your form 1, or 4??
there are only 2 benefits the way i see it, but they are BIG benefits that outweigh the benefits of going trust (in my opinion) - you have the chief law enforcement officers blessing saying its OK for you to have your stuff.

"well officer...... i dont mean to disagree with you, but your boss signed right here saying it was okie dokie for me to have this"

#2 - once its approved - its YOURS cause it is in your name, not in your trust, or corp, or llc - no way for a court to decide that you are not a legal person. It is possible for a court to decide that your trust, or llc, or corporation wasnt done exactly correct and its now void

the benefits of the trust??
well.........
you dont have to go down to walgreens and pay $5.00 for passport photos

you dont have to go to the ccw detail and pay $20.00 to get a couple sets of fingerprints done

you dont have to go to the ccw detail and wait in line to fill out a 2 page paper asking all the details about the gun (model, serial number, caliber - same stuff thats on the F4) , where youve lived in the past 10 years, any aliases you may have used in the past, and any felony convictions you may have had .

and you dont have to wait the 3 weeks it takes for the sherriff to sign the form, and mail it back to you

your family will not be able to take your NFA toys out without you when you go the individual route (with the trust, anyone on the trust is able to take the stuff out without you), but i dont WANT my wife, or kids to be able to take my stuff out without me present so this doesnt apply to me


there are a couple of forums that cater to NFA
one is subguns.com which has an NFA forum, and 1 is sturmgewehr.com which has a NFA and semi auto forum
if you asked the question on both boards "what would you guys do - go the trust route, or go individual transfer?? the CLEO signs off on F1, and F4s locally"
im willing to bet that MOST of the RKIs will tell you to go the individual route if your CLEO will sign off on your forms

all you are really sacrificing is a bit of time, and a couple of passport photos from wal greens, and a set of prints from the ccw detail, but what you are gaining is the CLEOs (or his authorized agent) signature saying its OK for you to posess it, and the form has your photograph, and your name on it instead of a corporation, or trusts name only


my opinions on the matter, and i realize they arent right for everybody


Mike

[fhenry]

Mike,

You make some very good points and I will have to give them serious thought before I make a call. Appreciate the time you took to bang those thoughts out.

The inconveniences involved with going the personal route are piddly to me so that's not that much of a factor however, the one thing that I'm not sure I can deal with is the issue with only me being able to possess the item(s). I've been reading a lot of forums the past few days and one example a "problem" with going the personal route I've seen discussed was that technically nobody else could have the combo to the safe said property was kept in. I need my wife to have access to the safe and I could foresee a time where I could get in a jam (like forget something I wanted with me) and would want her to bring it to me. Also, what happens to the item if you pass away?

I fully understand the concerns with the possibility of some court getting stupid in regard to a trust status and see your point in how it could be beneficial to have one's name directly tied to the item(s) too.

Decisions, decisions..........


Thanks again.

[vegassmg]

Many people are going the trust route these days so you're in good company.

I said that, but I'm not one of them.
I agree with Mike on this. For me, the CLEO sign off makes sense.

While corps. and trusts have been a legal method of acquiring NFA items for decades, I'm still not convinced that the BATF won't revisit this option at some point in the future due to the recent "discovery" of that method of acquisition.

How do they know if a person or persons in the trust would be prohibited from owning firearms when those trustees are not the legal owners and not listed as such? A trust owns the weapons, not the individuals.

I don't feel it's completely unreasonable for BATF to conduct a background check on those desiring to own NFA weapons and that's not possible with a trust. (no finger print cards for the FBI background check). I hope the day doesn't come when a convicted felon obtains a machine gun via a trust and uses it in a horrific crime. The powers that be in Washington will have a field day with that! Can you say loop hole? That's the same jargon the Brady bunch uses when referring to private party sales at gun shows.

As far as your NFA items and your death, the BATF allows your NFA items to be transfered to your survivors tax free via a Form 5. No issues there. If I still own any title two weapons when I die, my adult children will have to deal with the transfer. I have a great article from SAR Magazine that deals with estates and NFA weapons that's a good read. I'd be happy to make copies for anyone that wants one.

Now, if I decide to go the trust route, it sure won't be by using Quicken. I'll bite the bullet and have a knowledgeable attorney draft mine. Yeah, I know many thousands of people have used Will Maker without issue. That's fine and well, but I wonder how many are invalid? I personally know two people who have included their minor children as trustees. Guess what? A person under 21 years of age can't legally posses a machine gun! That being fact, would that trust be valid if it comes under scrutiny? What would happen to the items possessed under the trust?

At this point in time, I'll continue to go the Chief Law Enforcement Officer sign off route. As you stated, the inconvenience is piddly

As Mike correctly stated, the CLEO sign off may not be right for your situation, but it is for me. A wise person will consider all his options before blindly jumping into any situation. You strike as such a man.

That's my opinion, and worth exactly what you paid for it.

[fhenry]

Jul 7, 2009 20:44:23 GMT -5 Mike C (Perro) said:

there are a couple of forums that cater to NFA
one is subguns.com which has an NFA forum, and 1 is sturmgewehr.com which has a NFA and semi auto forum
if you asked the question on both boards "what would you guys do - go the trust route, or go individual transfer?? the CLEO signs off on F1, and F4s locally"
im willing to bet that MOST of the RKIs will tell you to go the individual route if your CLEO will sign off on your forms

I posted on subguns and so far most are coming back saying go the individual route.

[Mike C (Perro)]

what happens when you die??

as Tom already said, your wife, or children (whomever you will it to) fills out a form 5. it doesnt cost them a dime - transfers tax free

as far as your wife needing to know the combo - thats a difficult question
is she in posession of the NFA item if she doesnt remove it from the safe?

if you drive down to henderson defense, and Ron, or Andrew has a machine gun sitting on the counter, but you never pick it up, are you ever in posession of it??

im not a lawyer so contact one for legal advice, BUT, i think it would be awful hard to prove that your wife had posession of something if she only knew the combo to the safe but never ever even touched the said NFA item.

WE ARE LUCKY!!!!!! our sherriff signs off on our forms. IN MY NOT SO HUMBLE OPINION, trusts should only be used when the sherriff wont sign off - ours does so for me, its just right to go individual route, but im sure you could find a host of other people who will tell you that the trust route is better for there circumstances



email me - 1919a6@(remove)cox.net
i have a copy of the 2 page form that the CCW detail wants you to fill out for any NFA item.
you can give it a quick look and it may help you decide if the inconvenience of filling that form out will make you want to go the trust route. If you decide you want to go the individual transfer route, you can print it out and have it filled out before you even go down to the fingerprint bureau / ccw detail

[fhenry]

Email sent.

I'm not so much concerned about the death deal, that was more just a curiosity.

As far as the wife getting charged with constructive possession if she has the safe combo, that appears to be a long shot. However, some have posted on the subguns thread there has been case precedent similar to this type of thing happening.

On the flip-side, there seems to be recent history of B A T F E challenging some folks on their trusts too.

* I have no way of verifying these claims at the moment so I'm going to take it as that...possible both situations have/are going on but don't know for sure.

I'm beginning to think that either way can leave one open to getting jacked up.....if the death star, black cloud, and Murphy come together to put the ire of the law on you (justly or unjustly).

[Mike C (Perro)]

I'm beginning to think that either way can leave one open to getting jacked up.....if the death star, black cloud, and Murphy come together to put the ire of the law on you (justly or unjustly).

NOTHING in life is certain except death, and taxes

i would just like to add that if its not specifically written in law that it is illegal, then it is not illegal

there is no requirement (to my knowledge) for secure storage once you break into the NFA game. to my knowledge it is completely legal to stick your NFA item in your sock drawer if you wanted. Of course, sticking it in a safe is a far more responsible method.

if my wife was a person prohibited from ownership, i might worry about it.

since i have been involved with NFA, i have seen the ATF change there requirements on trust type transfers. Back when you first started seeing people do trust transfers you did not have to include a copy of stuff that was in your trust ( i *think* its called a schedule A).
I have heard that NOW ATF requires a copy of everything in your trust with your form 1, or form 4. The ATF has already changed there mind on trust type transfers within just the last couple of years - what happens 10 years from now when someone abuses the trust transfer??

just a few more things to think about

i know that a few people in our group have went the trust route and it works out for them. i dont pretend to know the right answer for what is perfect for you, or anybody except myself. im simply trying to let you know how i see things, and as always, these opinions are worth what you paid for them

whatever path you take, i hope that you take one of the roads because NFA ownership IS COMPLETELY WORTH THE HEADACHES IT TAKES TO PLAY THE GAME in my opinion!!

hope to talk to you more at one of our smaller shoots

Mike

[vegassmg]

Mike is correct... It's worth it. After your first NFA transfer, the big dark mystery will become crystal clear and you'll realize it wasn't such a big deal after all. I'll bet you'll say, "Hmmm.... Why didn't I do this years ago?"

Here's some additional information that may help.



How to Buy a Machinegun

Background:

Ever since the National Firearms Act of 1934, individuals buying machineguns have required the same process for each machinegun.

1) Federal transfer form with fingerprints and photographs for the background check.

2) One-time transfer tax of $200.

When your form is approved, a Federal stamp in the amount of $200 is attached to your form certifying approval. This form is your 'permission slip' to own that specific machinegun.

Some states, such as Maryland, require addition registration procedures.

Machineguns that can be transferred to individuals are commonly called "transferables." These machineguns were registered with the National Firearms Act Branch of BATFE prior to the 1986 ban on new registrations. Machineguns manufactured after this date are not transferable and are called "post-samples." Since the 1986 ban prevented registration of new machineguns that be transferred to individuals, the supply is fixed and finite. This is why machineguns tend to increase in value over time.

Eligibility:

You must be a US citizen over 21
You must not have been convicted of a crime
You must live in a state and jurisdiction that does not prohibit machineguns.

States that prohibit machineguns:

California
Delaware
Hawaii
New Jersey
New York
Rhode Island
Washington

Getting a Gun Transferred to You;

Per the rules setup under the National Firearms Act, machineguns cannot be transferred interstate between individuals. If you find a transferable machinegun in your state, you can have it transferred directly to you on an ATF Form 4. If you buy a machinegun outside of your state, you must utilize a Federal Firearms Licensee (FFL) who also has a Special Occupational Tax (SOT) registration to first get the machinegun into your state. These dealers are typically referred to as 'class 3 dealers.' They normally charge between $100 and $200 to facilitate the transfer process.

Transfers to dealers usually happen very quickly since there is no background check required (approximately 1-2 weeks). There are 3 types of ATF forms that are typically used for machinegun transfers:

Form 3 (tax exempt): FFL/SOT to FFL/SOT

Form 4 (transfer tax required):

Individual/Corp to Individual/Corp (within the same state only)
Or
FFL/SOT to Individual (within the same state only)
Or
Individual to FFL/SOT
Or
Individual to Curio & Relic FFL (for C&R machineguns only)

Form 5 (tax exempt): Individual (deceased) to Heir (within the same state only)

If you buy the machinegun from an 'individual' in another state, he would transfer that gun to your dealer in your state on a Form 4. If you buy the machinegun from an FFL/SOT in another state, he would transfer that machinegun to your dealer in your state on a Form 3.

Once the machinegun is in your state, you must complete the Form 4 to get the machinegun transferred from the FFL/SOT to you.

Completing the Form;

The Form 4 is a relatively simple two-page form. If you print it from the ATF web site (http://www.atf.treas.gov/forms/5000.htm#firearms) , you must make sure that both pages are on the same sheet of paper. The form must be completed in duplicate. The first section is the information about the "transferee" (you) and the "transferor" (your dealer). The second section is the information about the gun.

There are three sections on the back page:
1) The standard 'yes' and 'no' questions you have to answer each time you purchase a gun.
2) Section 15 ('Transferee's Certification'): This is where you state the reason you want the machinegun. Just be honest. Most people buy machineguns for investment, collecting, target shooting, etc.
3) Section 17 ('Law Enforcement Certification'): You should ask your dealer specifically whom you should go to get this section signed. Most local officials don't want to sign anything they are unfamiliar with, so it's important to be directed to the correct government agent or office to deal with this form. If you're lucky you can get your fingerprints and law enforcement certification done in the same day.

If you are filing your Form 4 as a corporation, partnership, LLC, PA or other legal entity besides 'individual,' you do not complete Section 17.

The fingerprint cards and photographs are for your FBI background check. This is a standard background check that is done government job applicants, schools teachers, SEC registrants, etc.

What to Send to ATF:

1) Complete Form 4 in duplicate with original ink signatures, not copies.

2) Certification of US Citizenship Form

3) Two FBI-258 Fingerprint Cards

4) Check for $200

Finding the Right Gun;

Most transferable machineguns are owned by individuals. Since the ban in 1986 and the high cost of each machinegun, most FFL/SOT holders do not typically have much inventory. Further, all transferable machineguns are at least 22 years old. So buying a transferable machinegun is a lot like buying a used car. Many of the transferable machineguns are offered for sale may not be accurately represented with respect to condition, function, and authenticity. It's important to deal with reputable collectors and dealers.

Web sites like sturmgewehr.com and subguns.com have been invaluable to the machinegun community. It's a good idea to watch the Want To Sell (WTS) posts and discussion forums for a while before you decide to make a move on a gun.

Not all machineguns were created equal. Some guns are just better than others and some are more suited for how you like to shoot or collect.

I typically evaluate a gun in three factors:

Collectability:
How much do other people want it?

There are many famous machineguns like the MP-40 or Thompson that are very sought-after by collectors. The key factors for any collector are condition, authenticity, and uniqueness. For example, the M11 and MP-40 basically do the same thing, but an MP-40 can sell for five times more than an M11.

Shootability:
How fun is the gun to shoot?

This is a mostly subjective factor. Some shooters prefer subguns to heavy machineguns or assault rifles. Once you determine your category preference, within each category there are performance and other differences between models. For example, an MP-40 is much more smooth and controllable than an M11.

How expensive is it to shoot?

A 50 cal. machinegun can get very expensive to run. Also, there are a lot of calibers that are now obsolete and using old/expired ammo may malfunction and damage the machinegun.

Serviceability:
How expensive and/or rare are spare parts?
How often do parts break?

Some machinegun designs are fundamentally better designed and built than others.

How hard is the gun to service?

Some guns were designed to be disposable rather than serviced. The resulting design is much more difficult to service. Replacing a barrel on an MP5 is a good example of a difficult-to-service design.

Is there a warrantee?

Some of the original manufacturers are still in business and will repair, service, and supply parts for their guns.

[Mike C (Perro)]

I'll bet you'll say, "Hmmm.... Why didn't I do this years ago?"

i did!!

Tom is correct, the first one is the hardest obstacle to overcome. Once you jump the first hurdle, it WILL become crystal clear to you, and youll get it, and it wont be a big deal to you.

I was in your shoes not very long ago. i asked Tom, and Mike Duke, and Ron Cheney, a bunch of questions, and i was on the fence about NFA ownership for many many years. They finally talked me into it, and im glad they did!!

my best advice to you is to just take the plunge - you will NEVER regret doing it


Mike

[fhenry]

Well I'm about 99% sure I'm going to go the individual route now. Just too many people in the know recommending it to go the other way.

Also, I'm shopping hard for suppressors so that'll be my first foray into this realm. MG will have to come later, although I'm up in the air as to when the time comes to spend that kind of $ if I'll decide for a .50 cal Barrett or go with some kind of MG.

[englishandy]

Just to clarify one point made, you don't have to be a U.S. citizen to own a Class 3 item. Immigrant aliens are eligible. We just have to fill out a few extra lines on the citizenship paperwork and include a copy of our Green Card.
Still British and proud of it.
Still shooting a Sten and a Sterling, of course !

[vegassmg]

Jul 9, 2009 20:26:31 GMT -5 englishandy said:

Still British and proud of it.

You, British?! Gee I'd have never guessed. ;D All this time I thought that was a Texas accent and you had an odd fascination with British guns. ;D

Jul 9, 2009 20:26:31 GMT -5 englishandy said:

Still shooting a Sten and a Sterling, of course !

Don't forget your Thompson...

Seriously, thanks for your input Andy. We're trying to lead another victim over to the dark side of the gun world. Can you tell us if you used the CLEO sign off or a trust?

Did you see the two Vickers and BREN gun from the 4th of July shoot? I thought about you and know you'd have loved them. Perro's C&R aircraft Vickers is amazing!